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Lets talk about the Bagavadgita...
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Pushtidas
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

In Pushtimarg when any vaishnav say or talks about Shree Krishna Prem leelas, these are the leelas which were mostly within the boundaries of Rangan leelas and Bal leelas. Kishore leelas were also within this arena.

"Matah partaram nanyuta"

This universe would be nothing if there was no God (Ishwar), the above sloka points that fact, no God no universe. Where ever we look and which ever way we look and in every living beings and living things, there is God residing in them.

"Sarva khalu edam Brahma"

Every where we feel God and what ever we do, there is that element where God has directly or indirectly had his hand in it. This way He instigates this and amazing thing is that although He is behind all these, but He never gets entangled in it. This is His favourite amplitude, He says
"Hun tema nathi pan te maranma che" that is I am not in this, but all this is in me. This is the science of Divine school. It is a science of being there, doing it all and in the result, you are not there. A new way of doing things, which is a science of coming out clean, if pardon the punt. This is a science which we have to learn, although we are on this earth and being here had to do our designated job, does not constitute that we have to be in it. This is a science of living like a Pushti jive.

A science that regulates earthlings but does not tie them into it. As Jagdishbhai mentioned the limitation of Eleven years and fifty two days in Pushtimarg:

Quote:
The same applies to Bhagvatji. This maha Puran does not only contain Thakorji's leelas until he was under 11 yrs but it contains everything, the sumum bonum of and beyond all the "cream of the cream" of all the vedas, upanishads, etc.. so again here we cannot tie it down to just Thakorji's and "Pushtimarg" flow of thinking, as even Bhagvatji is aimed at all the categories of people mentioned above.


When Shree Mahaprabhuji asked a Pushti Jiva (Vaishnav) to do seva Krishna seva sada kariya, always imbibe in serving Krishna, He was giving agiya to do seva of Purna Purshottam and not Mariyada Purshottam. Shreemad Bhagwatji is from Janma Prakran to its last Adhiyay about Krishna Leela. These leelas are continuous and eternal and Jagdishji it does not end at eleven years and fifty-two days.

Pushtimarg is based on the doctrines and teachings of Shree Mahaprabhuji, which is based on basis of Purna Purshottam and not Mariyada Purshottam. Thus, after leaving Gokul for Mathura, all his Bal leela were left behind and as soon as Krishna reached Mathura, He no longer can behave like a child, and set all his leela in that boundary, which He Himself set a balance and limitations and was no longer running round the cow-herds, was not playing flute in Vrandavan and was not seen to play pranks on gopis, a real drastic transformation. The Mathura and Shree Dwarka leelas were also Krishna leelas but these leelas are Mariyada Purshottam leelas.

As Shree Mahaprabhuji had proved on many Veda vivad and many debates, that Shree Krishna is Purna Purshottam as he could imbibe in Rasa vaih svaha leela and also distinguish Himself as Mariyada leela Prabhu.

Shree Mahaprabhuji wanted every vaishnavs to do Grahasthi Seva (that is the seva in individual homes), and this was only possible if the seva was done on the basis of Gopis and Yasodaji's model. Hence, the seva we as Pushtimargiya Vaishnavs, are asked to do seva as Yasodaji's bhava and love him as mother and imbibe in the form of Krishna like gopis.

So the seva prakar was set on 11 years and 52 days and this was the period in which Krishna had done major leelas including the Maharaas leela in which he showed Gopis that Madanmohanji's swaroop. From that swaroop He also transformed into Shree Gokulchandramaji's swaroop. Both these swaroop were the divine form of Purna Purshottam as He had agility and innocence of a child and had the character of naive adult and yet was rasa vai svaha as lover and controlled the Raas and presided it, in this way these forms were more than complete, they were Purna Purshottam

We also know that this period was the period when Krishna was in Gokul. This was where He was loved by Yasodaji as Bal-Krishna. So in Pushtimarg we do give more prominence to this period, which is known as Purna Purshottam leelas, in which we see Bal-leelas, Rangan leelas and also Kishore leelas.

My humble apology , the forum posting is longer than anticipated, so sorry.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shri Krishna,

Pushtidasji, no need to apologise, as they say... it is all good...

Many thanks for further elaborating and clarifying these. I am very grateful, especially for highlighting the episodes and as to why we are taught to do seva with baal bhaav..."nand baba's and yashodaji's bhaav" and that how Thakorji is the actual swami of the house.

i seem to have gone off a tangent and missed the target....

It was not my intention to show that this thought was a pushtimargiya thought. On the contrary, that is why i had put "Pushtimarg" inside the quotes, to show that although this _appears_ to be a generic view/thought, this is not really the case.

Pushtimarg philosophies and certainly Shri Mahaprabhuji's teachings are not restricted to 11 yrs and 52 days, but are based on all vedic principles derived from transcendental literatures such as Bhagvatam (which is not restricted to that duration of 11 yrs and 52 days).
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Thanks for lovely posting Jagdishbhai.

Jagdishji the teachings are based on Pushtimarg philosophies and certainly Shri Mahaprabhuji's teachings are not restricted to 11 yrs and 52 days, but are based on all vedic principles derived from transcendental literatures such as Bhagvatam. This explanation is on teachings of Pushtimargs and the sidhant on which the whole understanding of Purna Purshottam form is based. Certainly Shree Mahaprabhuji has used various literatures to to illustrate the Shakar Swaroop.

The above does not form the bases of Seva of Shree Purna Purshottam. We as Vaishnavs when initiated to do seva, we are limited to "Yasodosanglal" seva. Which is also very clearly explained in "Nirodhlakshanam" granth.

Quote:
yacha dukhkhama yasodaya nandadinama cha gokule |
gopikantama tu yad dukhama tad dukhama syanama kvachit || 1||


Nirodha, bound by Shree Hari, here is with God and arises when a vaishnav (bhakta) falls under His control. Nirodh does not follow the traditional yogic defination of nirodha which is "to control the tendencies of senses."

Shree Vallabh starts this granth by saying " When may I experience the rapture of the divine affliction that struck Krishna's mother Yasoda, His father Nanda, as well as Gopis and other Gokul Bhaktas?"

It is clear the seva is based on Nandaliya style and it is within that boundary and all seva and bhava is to be instigated and then Gopi Bhava of love was to be nurtured. Even Odhavji was told by Gopis that we only know Krishna who is Gokul and the one in Mathura and then in Dwarika is another Krishna. This bhava is defined very clearly in Bhrammar Geet.

Also Shringarrasmandan and Seva Prakar and many granths by Shree Hariraiji and Shree Gusainji do fall into Yasoda-Nand-Lal and Nandalaya prakar of seva.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JSK,

Thank you Pushtidasji and Jagdishji...

It seems very simple to say we must only think of souls as bodies are temporary, which there are no arguments. But how do we recognise souls, what characteristics do we look for? What about souls/people that don't believe in any religion, but still do good deeds? The point I am trying to get at is, to look past the body and materialistic relationships (e.g. firend, unlce etc) don't we need to understand the soul otherwise how would one know what to imbibe in?

Jasgdishji, when you said once a firm attachment of Shri Thajorji is made the detachment is automatically achieved...I think I understand what you mean, but would appreciate if you can ellaborate further just to clarify/confirm my thinking. Many thanks in advance.

Can someone give me the structure of the Bhagwadgita? I understand there are a few sections...
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shri Krishna,

We thank Pushtidasji for continuing to enlighten and guide us in this matter with a lot of depth.

These are a few areas worth considering, however it is not worth getting entangled into the nitty gritty issues... some of them are too convoluted and confusing.

From my limited understanding, i will try and say a few words.. However, I would like to request the more experienced ones to help elaborate further.

Gitaji aims at all issues, from the smallest to the largest and hence at the top level it can be divided into the primary topics of:
Dharm (The various paths to achieve this, Karm, Gnan/Gyan, Bhakti)
Arth
Kaam
Moksh

At a materialistic level these are aimed at how one could go abouts achieving best results in this material life.

At a transcendental level we look at how best one can obtain Thakorji and His Grace by channelling all the above only for Him and His seva.

We cannot look beyond the materialistic body until we stop associating ourselves with it and realise that we are spirit/soul...
looking at others in the same way helps us treat them accordingly and helps us acknowledge the divinity in them.

Again, this happens naturally once our attachment becomes firm in Thakorji.
It is a matter of getting our priorities right. As we practice more and more, then our attachment towards that practice grows - E.g exercising, eating, and forming good/bad habits.

The practice leads us to realize what is important for us at that stage in life and the art is in balancing these needs.

We tend to automatically give up on something when we find something better to replace it with. So, for example, once our interest in Pads, Bhajans and Kirtans grow, we would naturally listen to them more and more... and once we listen then we start wanting to know and understand them more, and while this is happening we start to loose interest in disco, garage, hip-hop etc etc...

Simply because the transcendental music is of a much higher caliber and contains profound Ras... this helps us physically/materially and spiritually. Whereas the other type only helps to do harm and create an imbalance.

As the level of interest increases towards purer and transcendental things, we loose interest in material things. Thakorji being Absolute, pure Ras in everyway, once we are attached/addicted to Him, then all other enjoyments don't hold true because they are all limited and temporary and we loose attachment/interest towards them.

apologies for a long-winded and repeated post, hope it helps and not create unnecessary confusions...

- Shri Mahaprabhuji has said; and truely so...
i cannot remember the exact words but they go something like this - "Gyan Margo Bhranti Marg"... words to the effect that the path of Gnan/Gyan is a misleading one
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shri KRishna,

Jagdishbahi are your refering to a question put by a bhagwadia to Shri Mahaprabhuji

Gyan Marga is better (to follow) or Karma Marga ??

Shri Mhaprabhuji told him both but the best is Bhakti Marga.

(Bhakti Marga is Sheesth.)

Correct me if I am wrong.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shri Krishna,

Bhai, i can't exactly remember, it is very possible that the comment was made to a query raised by a vaishnav...
but in this case, it was to imply that one should not try to fall into the false illusion (bhranti) of trying to simply follow the gyan/gnan maarg, as it is a path of confusion and pitfalls.

You are quite right in saying, that Bhakti Maarg is the best.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shri KRishna,

Even Lord Jagannath Puri when asked which is the most important shastra and who is God gave the following reply in writing to all the people who were present.

Ekum Shastram Devki Putra Gitam (Bhagwad Gita)
Eko Devo Devki Putra Aevo
Muntro Payek Tasae Namani Yani
Karma-pi Ekum Tasae Devsae Seva


There is only one Shastra Shrimad Bhagwad Gita sung personally by Shri Krishna

Only One God and that is Shri Krishna Himself (the son of Devki)

There is only one Mantra His name

Shri KRishna Shararan Mama

One must only worship Shri KRishna. He is the Lord of all other Gods and Demi Gods as He is the Purna Purshottam.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Very well said and the depth of all is Krishna. Here is another quote from Chatuha Sloki granth in which Shree mahaprabhuji addresses to vaishnavs on Shree Krishna of Varj. Here again you will see those hints that we only worship Krishna of Vraj:

Quote:
sarvada sarvabhavena bhajaniyo vrajadhipaha |
svsyayameva dharmohi nanyaha kvapi kadachana || 1||


The lord, the King of Vraj is always worthy of worship with every bhava. That is your (vaishnav's) dharma. There is never another one anywhere.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna,

Thanks for the replies.

Jagdishji I enjoyed your post especially when you wrote about listening to garage hip hop etc. I'm in my 20's and enjoy this kind of music along with kirtans. Is it not possible to still enjoy this genre of music and also imbibe in pushtimarg?

JSK
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shri krishna,

Hoshilji, thank you for your kind words.

To try and answer your query... i am hoping others will contribute to this also.

Pushtimarg does not stop one from "enjoying" other tastes such as hip hop etc.. So, in theory, yes, it is possible to do both and certainly one is also encouraged to channel all these various feelings and emotions in one's own personal worship/seva.

However, as one progresses to, lets say, more finer tastes, then one automatically becomes detached from the rougher tastes.. (we can generalise these under the three categories of sattvick, tamsic and rajas)

Then to be fair to ourselves (unless one has progressed to a high level of understanding in transcendental matters and the seva), one must also consider that the time we spend listening to other things is the same time we could be utilising in trying to learn more about pushtimarg or the things it has to offer through various teachings, literatures, etc.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the kirtans, bhajans by listening to them, but how often does one truly understand them and implement them practically in life ? When does one find time to implement them in life ?

Generally speaking, if we observe ourselves (watch our thoughts carefully, on a daily basis) we will find that we sub-consciously do things we "learn" from our daily activities such as, association with other people or after we listen to mundane things, be it a radio programme or tv shows, etc .... (we usually refer to these things as 'getting brainwashed' ?).... but we don't find ourselves practising the teachings in the literatures, pravachans, kirtans, pads etc. as easily.

One could argue that should we not be making the effort to prevent ourselves from becoming delusioned and make conscious effort to try and be that much nearer to God ? Taking the example of listening to the various types of music. Would the time not be better spent if it was occupied in listening to pravachans (discourses), literatures (the vartas, shikshapatras,etc..), kirtans, pads, etc and in trying to understand them more thoroughly, given that they all contain many different understandings at various levels. The quote "Time is Short" applies here well... because if we "waste" precious moments (every second, minute and every hour is precious) by getting distracted/side-tracked in doing "other" things, then when will we be able to find time to be with/near Him. ?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna,
Thank you Jagdishji, just a little thought i wanted to share......if when listening to hip-hop music(or whaterver it may be) we think and relate the songs back to Thakorji, can it be called 'wasting' time?? I am 17 and am really trying to become a good vaishnav, and i have found that yes maybe mor of my time could be dedicated to learning things and gaining knowledge. However if we break Pushtimarg down to its bare bones we understand it is about loving Krishna and wanting to do his seva whole heartidly. As vital as it is to understand and gain as much knowledge as we can in the time we have, is it not fundementally based on bringing Thakorji into everything we do, and seeing him in every aspect of the material world?? Making lokik into alokik?? Very Happy In answer to your query Hoshilji, i find that it it is most enjoyable to listen to my music but think about Thakorji or Yamuna Maya. It puts that extra smile on your face and means you are combing your love for them with your loved interests in the material world.
JAI SHREE KRISHNA!!! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Jagdishji and Palnaji,

I appreciate both of your thoughts. Its great because at one end I have a lovely vaishnav saying time has an opportunity cost (stating the obvious) i.e. whatever you do can be spent learning other things about pushtimarg and on the other hand I have another lovely vaishnav saying it is all about love towards Thakorji no matter what you do!!! But thats not to say Palnaji isn't trying to acquire more knowledge or Jagdishji's aim isn't about love.

I love this forum!!!

Would both of you (and anyone else) agree that the beautiful thing about Pushtimarg is you can involve Thakorji in everything you do, obviously within limits e.g. no drinking or smoking. Therefore in theory all other things can still be done. However, for me the idea behind reading more into the everything will help one feel and be closer to Thakorji. Jagdishji's point in an earlier post actions such as listening to hip hop etc may tip you off balance.

So I guess if you do want to imbibe in lokik things the idea is to strike the right balance between the two views.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shri Krishna,

Palnaji, thank you for joining in and for these, very important thoughts. I feel, you are thinking at a different level now... and ofcourse you are very right in that sense when you say to relate the music you listen to (or anything you do for that matter) to/with Thakorji and His thoughts.

Hoshilji, Indeed, striking the balance is a must... as we said earlier, that when the time is right, we automatically loose taste for and become detached from the more rougher tastes in life...
True said, one of the many beauties about Pushtimarg is that it advocates living a balanced life at a moderate level ....

... unless we do as palnaji does and suggests, and hence i said ... thinking at a different level... If we convert/transform (matter of perception) that enjoyment and relate it to Thakorji, then it is all good.

Ofcourse, i would like to request Pushtidasji, Vasantji and other respected and experienced ones to share their knowledge and experiences and contribute here also...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna,

Just wanted to say thanks to Pusthidasji, Jagdisji, Vasantji, Trushnaji, Hoshilji and Palnaji for elaborating on this topic I enjoyed it immensly.

Palnaji and Hoshilji you 2 are soo cute with your comments and so right by saying if we turn lokik into alokik and relate it to Thakorji we still imbibe into him. This way you are living in this materialistic world but your mind and heart are with Thakorji

Thakorji has said in the Bhagvad Gita that you must do everything in this sansaar as in carry out all your duties but your chit should stay with me.

Jagdisji your are absolutely right by the saying the more you imbibe into pusthimarg and try and understand everything you slowly start detaching from the materialistic world. It just starts happening naturally and the alokik world is way more attractive so you are automatically pulled towards it.

Hoshilji thankyou for asking these wonderful questions


JSK
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