Krishna Seva

[palna]

Jai Shree Krishna,

Let us first note some very simple examples of how lord is boundless to the nature of physical laws. He defies gravity; he changes matter, organic or not with a single thought and has displayed unnatural levels of strength. (Amongst many others) This is the case for many religious figure heads such as the miracles of Christ.

These display that if God wishes to do something then no such law need be kept by Him nor is it wrong for Him to break it, simply because again as He is the CAUSE and is that which is AFFECTED there is no rule BROKEN! And I emphasise that there is no biased as it is He Himself upon who He is acting towards! How can He be biased against Himself?

He therefore can change a rule for any particular group or individual as it is He that resides within them and He who causes these changes. Pray tell how is one biased towards themselves? If God wished it, He could wipe out every kamic seed attached to the soul, however this is a Leela and a game that He created, in order to be played.

The initial process of krupa(grace) is an action done by lord to win the affections of the soul. To give comfort to the individual and to show that He, Lord is present. However describing this grace as favour implies neglect for others, what ever the religion. There is no neglect as again God resides with in every one and everything all the time. He knows and is just as much with a soul who worships Him, as He is with a soul that does not.

The only difference and bias is on the part of the soul. Some acknowledge His presence and some do not. Some attempt contact and reunion and others choose not to. Never the less there is no neglect of specific favour as He is as much with one soul as He is another in whatever medium.

In regards to feeling at an advantage being apart of a religious tradition it does not necessarily imply disadvantage on another person. Not in the slightest. Which is why the acceptance for all different paths within the umbrella of Hinduism is so very fascinating. Let me elaborate. As Hindu’s we accept different paths and acknowledge that there are many routes to the same goal. We also accept that different people have different bhav (emotion, feeling) towards different Gods, deities.

I can say that I feel lucky to be inclined towards Lord Krishna because the tales of His leela’s pluck the cords of my emotion. That seva of Krishna is a perfect medium for me to express my religiosity. Where as though puja of other figures is nice, and attending Christian mass may also be good, I am lucky to have found this medium which suites me best!

Therefore not implying a disadvantage on any other person following any other path! We readily discount one path to heighten another. This is certainly not the case and should not be. We too often highlight differences when we should focus on similarities and acceptance of these.

As for Krishna being bound (but not bound) to the events which led to His death. Well the very simple explanation that I rationalise is that this is a leea! The world is but a play and as director He had to organise a way to make His exit. Please let us not be so foolish as to think He could not have changed such events if He wanted to. Everything happens strategically, He planned such events and we know this when we look to puranic and vedic texts. But rest assured as God the unfathomable He could change this at a mere thought. If anything, He has simplified such things and provided us with explanations for things as to sooth our nimble brains.

Again enjoying this convo. However I think we shall have to agree to disagree Prashantji on this matter. But feel free to respond if you so wish.

“Bounce Bounce Bounce-goes the ball”
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Prem Bandhan Ajab Gajab, Brahmaganth sami aa ganth, na tutai na chutai

Palna na Koti Koti Jai Shree Krishna

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
I am glad that you agree to disagree with me Palnaji and thanks for some strong arguments. Even I wouldn't mind to disagree with my own self .

It is beyond my doubt that god is unbiased. So where does this conversation go from here? Well, how do we justify that our marg is a marg of grace. The grace that god has bestowed upon pushtimarg has to be extended to all his living beings and it is, right, as he is unbiased. So why does pushtimarg say that it is only because of his grace that we are in this marg. This can be said for each and every religion and or sect?

What is the role of Law of Karma in this marg of grace? Can they co-exist?

"No foul yet, continue hitting the ball"
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[palna]

Jai Shree Krishna,

Am glad to extend the topic into a new avenue.

Whilst discussing this topic the following valid points came up. I shant take credit for this analysis but here it is:

"God in one, so grace is a commodity which is bestowed on everyone, for instance; Christians say it is Christs grace and sacrifice that they are Christian. Similarly Muslims say that it is Allah's grace and will that they are Muslim. As do we as Hindu's echo our feeling of appreciation. Therefore God is unbiased and this is shown by His actions to also bestow moksh to Kansa raja after slaying him."

Therefore my personal deduction is that Yes it is Lords grace that we belong to whatever tradition suites our bhav best and yes i feel this can be said for all religious traditions.

The role of Karma i feel can co-exist with our marg. I feel there are many points which can be raised and feel it prime opportunity to address fellow Vaishnavs on KS.com......Any thoughts people??
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Prem Bandhan Ajab Gajab, Brahmaganth sami aa ganth, na tutai na chutai

Palna na Koti Koti Jai Shree Krishna

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
The reason I started with negativity in this discussion is to make sure that we all are on the same page that god is unbiased. If you look at my examples in the above couple postings, it's really hard for me to justify that Law of Karma and God's grace can co-exist, especially when we agree that god is unbiased.

I have read a book on Law of Karma and it says even God cannot or rather does not (which ever way you want to take it) interfere in this. When he incarnates in human body even he has to follow this law and that's the reason why he opted to leave his body in Krishna avtar by getting killed by a hunter who was bali from Ram avtar. There are many other stories for eg why Bhisma Pitama had to feel the pain of so many arrows. He had done no wrong in his past 72 births but in his 73rd birth he had poked pin to the butterfly. That karma's fruit bore after 73 births as a result he had to die on the bed of arrows.

Vasantji, in case you are following this topic, keeping law of karma in mind I fail to understand the story you narrated under topic Pavitra Ekadashi http://krishnaseva.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=212

Sitalji, if you are talking about Moksh or Mukti in 3 janam after taking bramhsambandh than I again fail to understand because this is against the combination of law of karma and free will.

Pushtidasji, I thought you were interested in my questions. Unfortunately there is hardly any reply from your side to my questions.

Palnaji, I truly appreciate your heart felt efforts to participate in these questions to unfold the mystery. I have been enjoying some healthy conversation with you so far and hope to continue the same.
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[palna]

Jai Shree Krishna,

In short Prashantji my main argument against this book is that Lord Krishna did not enter earth with a human body!! He was not confined to human flexibility.

Additionaly if one looks to 84 and 252 varta's it is utterly clear that Krishnas actions towards various souls was not conditioned by karma.

Again there is much to discuss under this topic; one needs to consider the various life spans that these 84 and 252 vaishnavs, understand how Krishna's closeness changes the ties of karma, if it does, how much does it? and what role bhakti plays in this? etc....
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Prem Bandhan Ajab Gajab, Brahmaganth sami aa ganth, na tutai na chutai

Palna na Koti Koti Jai Shree Krishna

[Pushtidas]

Jai Shree Krishna
and Jai Jai Shree Gokulesh

Prashantji, you are having a lovely flow of satsang with Palnaji and both of you are in a true flow so I did not feel it was right to bring my thoughts at the stage.

But before I delve in my thoughts and convey them through KS.com satsang tibari, I like to hear from you on these questions (You have been asking questions, now it is time you answer these questions) What is Karma, can you give your definition as you understand? What is the connection of Karma between soul and Brahman (as you address Him as GOD)?
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Dasa nu das
Pushtidas

[Prashant]

Jai Shree krishna,
Thank you Pushtidasji for your reply. I respect your stand. It's always good to have views from different aspects. More the merrier

If you look so far at my questions, I have always taken a stand for almost every question that I have asked. So its not only about asking questions but rather thinking out the whole process. I am making sure that I do not miss the oppurtunity to be part of this whole process.

Further, I will make an attempt to answer the question that you have asked sometime soon.
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[Pushtidas]

Jai Shree Krishna

Thank you for your prompt reply, asking question is not and cannot constitute the not to delving in it, the comment I made was that as you have invited me to put my thoughts on the subject, I also like you, think the process with questions and also delve in replying with great care and understanding. We do think before we reply any questions in this satsang tibari, and I like your style.

I await your reply with eagerness.
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Dasa nu das
Pushtidas

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
It's getting little busy at my job so I may not get enough time to write down my thoughts in detail. So instead of taking time to format the whole thought process about Karma I will write it as it pops in my head.

Karma means action or deed. This action could be physical, emotional or mental. Karma is very much like seeds. Being a seed, karma does not sprout immediately after it is sown. It requires a fertile soil of self-arrogation and the manure of similar actions to help its growth and fruition. Since this is quite evident in every one except few we are all tied with the fruits of karma.

In general there are two types of karmas. Good karma and bad karma. These terms are used for ease of understanding. Generally good karma is related to healthy emotional feeling and bad karma is related to unhealthy emotional feeling. Every moment of our life results in the accumulation of karma either good or bad. Good and bad cannot nullify each other. Each of them bears the fruit. It is like debit and credit but over here debit cannot nullify the credit.

Karma is the storage of our actions, recorded in a special memory. These recordings are like time boms that will explode in the future. The sight of an object, the thinking of a thought, the performance of an act, even though very transitory, leave a complex trace in the Cosmic Memory, which lasts beyong time and leaves also an imprint in the subconscious mind. This subconscious imprint is called Sanskar or Samskar. The character of a man, his moral or mental status, his talents, his likes and dislikes are all determined by his sanskars, which are the product of his karma (past action). The sanskars transmigrate from incarnation to incarnation, being never lost. They act like seeds that will develop according to a specific pattern.

Karma has three levels -
1) Sanchit Karma
2) Kriyaman Karma
3) Prarabdh Karma

Sanchit Karma is the Karma that does not bear the fruits immediately. It takes time to bear the fruit. eg You sow the seeds of Mango. It would not bear any fruit until few years.

Kriyaman Karma is the karma that bears immediate fruit eg you are hungry, you eat the food. The action of eating food immediately satisfies your hunger.

Prarabdh Karma bears the fruits for some action taken in the past. When sanchit karma is ready to bear the fruits it is called Prarabdh karma.

This is just a short explanation on my understanding of karma. I will try to write more as and when time permits. In the mean while please feel free to question or share your thoughts on this.

Jai Shree Krishna,
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[Pushtidas]

Jai Shree Krishna

Thank you Prashantji that was lovely, short and sweet basic explanation on Karma, I enjoyed it and your style is commendable. I am sure once you tear away from your heavy, busy and tight schedule at work, you will feed us with your thoughts on the second part of the question.

Meanwhile, still on Karma, Shree Param dayalu Shree Gusainji has described five dosh which do enhance good or bad Karma:

1. Sahaj Dosh
2. Desotiya Dosh
3. Kalotiya Dosh
4. Sayongaja Dosh
5. Sparshaj Dosh

One of the main characteristics of Karma is that the Karma is not transferable, nor can be spent as you suggested in your above post, but in Pushtimarga we have sadhan (vehicle) which can help a soul to get mukti from his/her Karma.
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Dasa nu das
Pushtidas

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
Thank you Pushtidasji for your kind words. I have a long way to go and learn lot many things from you and every one in this forum.

May I request you to elaborate further on the 5 dosh described by Shree Gusainji?
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
A quick peek into the second part of the question; what is the relation between karma and soul.

Karma is done by the body but its fruits are attached with the soul or jeev. Because body is temporary and soul is permanent when the body dies and fruits are not ripen, the seeds of karma are carry forwarded with soul. Soul's next body is decided upon the seeds that are ready to bear fruits. The wheel of life and death keeps going in the same fashion and only comes to halt when the soul has no more seeds of karma.

I am not quite sure if I understood your question correctly but please feel free to ask further for any specifics.

Thanks
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[palna]

Jai Shree Krishna,

Prashantji, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Your understanding of karmic seeds echoes those of the Buddhist perspective. I ask however, is it ever possible to have no seeds of karma attached to the soul??

These seeds are planted as a result of good and bad actions. In fact they are sewn as a result of any action at all. For there is even action in taking a stance on being inactive. Thoughts sew these seeds, thus is it ever possible to break the bonds of samsar by attempting to not plant these karmic seeds?

It is at this stage where Pushtimarg, being the Bhakti marg provides a solution. Would any Vaishnavs care to elaborate?
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Prem Bandhan Ajab Gajab, Brahmaganth sami aa ganth, na tutai na chutai

Palna na Koti Koti Jai Shree Krishna

[Pushtidas]

Jai Shree Krishna
and
Jai jai Shree Gokulesh

Thank you Prasantji, that was what I wanted everyone in the tibari to know, the connections between Brahma (God) and Jeev (soul). Well put, short and sweet.

I will also elaborate on the dosh mentioned by Shree Gusainji and in that we will discuss the real connection with soul and God. Thank you for your contribution on the tibari, inspite of your heavy schedule at work.

Thank you Palnaji, the expert reply and deduction on Karma and kariya (action). You are right in saying that the seeds are planted by good or bad action, and wow also seed may be gathered by beeing non active and non productive. It is catch twenty-two. Heh...heh..

Thoughts sew these seeds as well and it is Karmic Astrologic rules that governs sidhant of karma in which it stipulates that although by breaking the bonds of sanmsar the karmic seeds will not detach that bond of Karma as they are attached with soul, but in that state, the bad karma will be 'spent' by deattachment and good karmas is carried forward which could create the soul into a better jeev.
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Dasa nu das
Pushtidas

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
Religions of Indian origin share lots in common, so quite possibly my understanding on karma could echo the buddhist perspective, Palnaji.

As I mentioned earlier - the seeds of karma does not sprout without fertile soil of self-arrogation and the manure of similar actions to help its growth and fruition. Thus it is possible to break the bonds of samsar by not planting these seeds if we dissolve our ego.

Let me take this oppurtunity to add few more points on this.

There are few conditions when the seeds of karma does not get deposited as Sanchit Karma.

1) Balya Avastha (Childhood) - A small child has no raag (attachment) or dvesh (enemity or jealousy - someone can help me in finding right english word for dvesh). Any karma done during this period does not plant any seeds.

2) Manushyantar (Non human form) - karma done by non-human beings (animals, birds, insects) does not plant any seeds.

3) Nishkam Karma - Karma done without any raag-dvesh, desire and ego is called as nishkam karma.

4) Bebhan avastha (Unconsious state of mind) - karma done during unconscious state of mind also does not plant any seeds.

By and large if I have to deduce I would say karma done without ego, desire, attachment or enemity does not plant any seed.

I am eager to know from pushtimarg's point of view. Waiting to hear more from you Palnaji and Pushtidasji.
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant